Comments on BlueTruth: Bay Area Women in Black-- They Hate Zionism, but H...

"Many Palestinian tall tales about their &quo...

2009-06-09T06:25:41.563-07:00

"Many Palestinian tall tales about their "history" and the conflict are just accepted as true although they have no basis in actual fact. But whats really funny is that they INSIST on their version, sometimes even when shown indisputable facts to the contrary. Its disapointing when anyone is closed minded but I had always expected better than from the Unitarian Universalists."

So did I. . . Most ironically Unitarian*Universalists are themselves sometimes guilty of telling rather tall tales about U*U history and the conflicts that U*Us are involved in. They too INSIST on their version of the "truth", sometimes even when shown indisputable facts to the contrary.e

if you were told you had to leave the place where ...

2009-06-04T12:21:37.264-07:00

if you were told you had to leave the place where you live right now to make way for the people that lived there before, i bet you would be pretty upset, too. if you really support israel, you should support the native americans in the return of the north american continent to the rightful owners.

Its interesting how some people of the left, and i...

2009-06-02T16:17:36.932-07:00

Its interesting how some people of the left, and in particular the Berkeley Unitarians would prefer to retain their cherished myths about Israel and the Palestinians without ever reading up on the real history of the issue and coming to their own opinions. Many Palestinian tall tales about their "history" and the conflict are just accepted as true although they have no basis in actual fact. But whats really funny is that they INSIST on their version, sometimes even when shown indisputable facts to the contrary. Its disapointing when anyone is closed minded but I had always expected better than from the Unitarian Universalists.

R

Both sides are guilty of ethnocentricity and a sid...

2009-06-01T17:03:48.824-07:00

Both sides are guilty of ethnocentricity and a side is going to have to be the better person. Personally, I don't think either side is capable of putting their own interests aside.

Just want to add that BAWIB certainly does not go ...

2009-05-29T23:59:47.311-07:00

Just want to add that BAWIB certainly does not go unchallenged! San Francisco Voice for Israel regularly counters BAWIB's "vigils", which BAWIB really, REALLY does not like (see http://www.bluetruth.net/2008/03/help-police-zionists-are-looking-at-us.html). There is also the Oakland Women in Black, a pro-Israel WIB group.

Robin: see norcalism.org/Gilad4web.pdf note the ...

2009-05-29T20:16:51.737-07:00

Robin: see
norcalism.org/Gilad4web.pdf

note the line "sponsored by BFUU Social Justice Committee"

Could you please provide more information regardin...

2009-05-29T14:48:08.988-07:00

Could you please provide more information regarding what the role of the Berkeley Unitarian*Universalist Church is in this controversy? How exactly are they "sponsoring" Gilad Atzom on June 8th? Have representatives of the Berkeley Unitarians made any comment about this matter?

For the record this matter only just came to my attention as a result of someone posting an anonymous comment to The Emerson Avenger blog which exposes and denounces U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy. If I am convinced that U*Us are behaving in a manner that warrants some exposing and denouncing I will do so. Strangely enough this is the second time this week that I have been made aware of Unitarian*Universalists hosting or sponsoring a similarly controversial event. It came to my attention yesterday that the Philadelphia Unitarian Church is (indirectly) hosting a White Supremacist punk rock group or something along those lines.

Its rather amazing to me that there are people tha...

2009-05-28T14:00:43.870-07:00

Its rather amazing to me that there are people that not only accept the myths that form the "Palestinian narrative" as factual history, they actually want to disregard real history in favor of these myths. So, in fact, the "Palestinans" did NOT ever have a country, and the identity of "Palestinian" was assigned to them in 1964 by the Arab League. Israel was not created by a gigantic miltiary operation that displaced these folks, its a much longer, more nuanced history that involves 2/3 of "Palestine" being rendered free of all Jews and transformed into Jordan in 1923, and the Arab rejection of statehood in "Palestine" in 1947. Gaza and the West Bank didn't come under Israeli control until the 1967 Six Day War. No one called it "Palestine" nor discussed a "Palestinian state" before that.

Rather than an ethnicity, or a sub-ethnicity of "Arab", "Palestinan" is a political identity, defined in terms of opposition to Israel.

The Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarian Universalists...

2009-05-28T10:55:58.541-07:00

The Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarian Universalists on Cedar St is sponsoring Gilad Atzom on June 8 . According to their website, BFUU is model of social justice activism and economic diversity within the Unitarian Universalist movement.

The Unitarians guiding principle is

Let love be the spirit of this congregation
And service its goal.
This is our living covenant:
To dwell together in peace,
to seek the truths in life,
and to help one another.

Can someone please explain to me how sponsoring a holocaust denier and racist is keeping with that goal?

there is indeed some anti-Arab racism on the pro-I...

2009-05-27T17:29:52.715-07:00

there is indeed some anti-Arab racism on the pro-Israel side. That's undeniable. But it's a minority, it's not the mainstream viewpoint--look at the websites of AIPAC and other large pro-Israel groups--do you find anything racist there? Unless you define the insistence on Jewish self-determination in the Jewish homeland racist--which is both a fallacy and itself a racist argument when applied only to the Jewish people, leaving Palestinians (a group that developed a national identity only within the past 80 years) considered perfectly worthy of their own national rights.

The "two states for two peoples" groups (which included the previous 3 governments of Israel) certainly were promoting the idea of the FIRST Palestinian state ever (anybody who suggests that there was an Arab country of Palestine should inform us who ruled it, what its capital was, when it existed, etc.). But the pro-Palestinian groups such as al-Awda, ANSWER, BAWIB etc. all take the position of denying that the Jews have any right to a state in their own homeland. That's racism. It's the same racism that not only Hamas, but even the PA, promote when they broadcast sermons calling Jews the sons of apes and pigs, denying any Jewish ties to the area, etc.

Again-- as long as Palestinian nationalism is defined, as it has been for the past 60 years, as requiring the elimination of Jewish national rights (or, as per Hamas, of the Jewish people entirely), the Palestinian people will continue to be the losers.

Wait, writer, are you saying that their is no anti...

2009-05-27T17:04:51.209-07:00

Wait, writer, are you saying that their is no anti-Islamic/Palestinian racist sentiments on the Pro-Israeli side of the argument?

"The "Palestinians" never had a country." That's ...

2009-05-27T17:01:14.660-07:00

"The "Palestinians" never had a country."

That's not true.

"Arabs were offered a country - a state of their own in 1948, at the same time that Israel became a state. They refused to live alongside the Jews. Five surrounding countries joined forces to annihilate Israel. We all know what happened in that war."

They weren't offered a "country." They were told to move. Where they were told to move to could have been a new Palestine. But who has a right to tell anyone to move? No one told the Germans to move..

And the result of that war was Israel illegally occupying territory.

"The goal of the "Palestinians" is to push the Jews into the sea. The Muslim "Palestinians" are already responsible for decimating the Christian population in Bethlehem, through kidnap and forced marriage of Christian girls, who by virtue of having been kidnapped and "married" are considered Muslim, as are all children born to them from the forced marriage. Christian Families who can manage to leave the country have done so."

See, racism exists on the Pro-Israeli side, too. Of course, ALLL Palestinians are responsible for those atrocities, right? By that logic, all Israeli's are responsible for the atrocities committed by their government.

Both sides have committed horrible acts against the other. Saying one side is more guilty than the other is absurd. But what concessions can the Palestinians make? They've already lost their land.

2009-05-27T10:34:30.721-07:00

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

The "Palestinians" never had a country. Arabs from...

2009-05-27T10:30:57.932-07:00

The "Palestinians" never had a country. Arabs from surrounding countries moved in and out as they pleased. Heavy Arab immigration occurred once Jewish immigrants came in and purchased land - the very worst land - from Arabs, at inflated prices. They made that poor land thrive with crops. Their prosperity attracted Arab immigrants desperate for work, and they worked for the Jewish immigrants.

Arabs were offered a country - a state of their own in 1948, at the same time that Israel became a state. They refused to live alongside the Jews. Five surrounding countries joined forces to annihilate Israel. We all know what happened in that war.

The goal of the "Palestinians" is to push the Jews into the sea. The Muslim "Palestinians" are already responsible for decimating the Christian population in Bethlehem, through kidnap and forced marriage of Christian girls, who by virtue of having been kidnapped and "married" are considered Muslim, as are all children born to them. Christian Families who can manage to leave the country have done so.

Atamom is ignorant of history and facts.

An American Woman

The Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarian Universalists...

2009-05-27T10:17:08.483-07:00

The Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarian Universalists is co-sponsoring the program. They also host a Norse pagan group and and Afro-brazilian pagan group.
Apparently anything goes but zionism.

thought I'd let thsoe two comments in just so I co...

2009-05-26T18:04:55.352-07:00

thought I'd let thsoe two comments in just so I could respond to them (author's privilege...)

they clearly show not only an absolute failure to pay attention to what is being described on these pages but of history as well.

BAWIB and those who they support and promote openly support the elimination of a Jewish state ANYWHERE in the Middle East-- by routinely referring to all of Israel as occupied territory and supporting the fictional "right" of return of great grandchildren of refugees of the civil war started by, and lost by, the Arabs in 1947-48.

And "what's racist about supporting the Palestinian plight?" The racism that says that while the Palestinians are entitled to a state, the Jews are not. The racism that excuses any type of Palestinian violence, such as chopping an 8 year old to pieces with an ax, as "resistance" while any Israeli attempt to protect its citizens is condemned as "genocide". The racism that allows BAWIB to cooperate with someone who promotes Holocaust deniers and blood libelers.

Support for the Palestinians need not be racist. But far too often, it is. Your decision--live with the consequences.

Israel invaded Gaza and the West Bank illegally wi...

2009-05-26T17:15:02.233-07:00

Israel invaded Gaza and the West Bank illegally with force. The Palestinians have been fighting for it ever since. No matter what side you're on, that's the situation. I wouldn't expect the Palestinians to give up without a fight, and that's what they're delivering. Maybe the occupiers should come up with a solution?

What's racist about supporting the Palestinian pli...

2009-05-26T16:59:32.171-07:00

What's racist about supporting the Palestinian plight? They had their own country and someone came in with a military and displaced them. Now they're fighting for their land and the occupiers are fighting to keep them out of it. Religion, race and ethnicity don't come into this argument. Either you support people who were displaced by a violent force or you support violent forces that displace people.

This choice Atzmon quote sums it all: "It is abou...

2009-05-25T19:27:19.214-07:00

This choice Atzmon quote sums it all:

"It is about time we internalise the fact that Israel and Zionism are the ultimate Evil with no comparison."

or even this:

"To regard Hitler as the ultimate evil is nothing but surrendering to the Zio-centric discourse. To regard Hitler as the wickedest man and the Third Reich as the embodiment of evilness is to let Israel off the hook."

And these are from Atzmon's own website.

No, I'm not going to provide a link- why promote this abject loser any more than possible?

It's remarkable how it almost always comes down to...

2009-05-24T21:11:19.990-07:00

It's remarkable how it almost always comes down to this. As the left-wing Israel-haters become more and more radicalized, they come around and meet the right-wingers from the other side. The psychological question is "did they come to their antisemitism from anti-Zionism, or were they anti-Zionists because of their antisemitic feelings?"